Nathan Hwang

The Mundane Science of Living Forever

Epistemic Status: timeboxed research, treat as a stepping stone to more comprehensive beliefs. Known uncertainty called out.

Live forever, or die trying!

Previously: Lifestyle interventions to increase longevity @ LessWrong9s of cats.


Yes, Immortality

I wrestled with whether to shoot for a more normal and mundane title, like “In Pursuit of longevity”, but “live a long time!” just doesn’t have the ring that “live forever!” does.

Clarification: I don’t have the Fountain of Youth. I’m relying on the future to do the heavy lifting. Kurzweil’s escape velocity idea is the key idea: we want to live long enough that life expectancy starts increasing more than 1 year per year. Life expectancy is currently stagnant, so we want to live as long as possible to maximize our chances of hitting some sort of transition.

In other words, we need silver bullets to overcome the Gompertz curve, but there are no silver bullets yet, just boring old lead bullets. We’ll have to make our own silver bullet factory, and use the lead bullets to get there.

So, the bulk of this post will be devoted to simply living healthily. A lot of the advice is boring and standard: eat your vegetables, exercise, get enough sleep. However, I wanted to check out the science and see what holds up under (admittedly amateur) scrutiny.

(I’ll be ignoring the painfully obvious things, like not smoking. If you’re smoking, stop smoking[1].)

My process: I timeboxed myself to 20 hours of research, ending in August 2017. First, I looked up the common causes of death and free-form generated possible interventions. Then, I followed the citations in the Lifestyle interventions to increase longevity post and then searched Google Scholar, especially for meta-analyses, and read the studies, evaluating them in a non-rigorous way. I discarded interventions that I wasn’t certain about: for example, Sarah lists some promising drugs and gene therapies but based only on animal studies, where I wanted more certainty. I ended up using 30+ hours, so not everything is exhaustively researched as much as I would like: for example, there was a fair amount of abstract skimming. I did not read every paper I reference end-to-end. On the other hand, many papers were also locked behind paywalls so I couldn’t do much more than that.

This means if you read one of these results and implement it without talking to your doctor about it and bad things happen to you, I will ask you: ARE YOU A SPRING LAMB? WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING THINGS A RANDOM PERSON ON THE INTERNET TOLD YOU TO DO? AND WITHOUT VETTING THOSE THINGS?

Or more concretely: you are a unique butterfly, and no one cares except the medical world. What happens for the faceless statistical masses might not happen for you. I will not cover every single possible interaction and caveat, because that is what those huge medical diagnosis books are for, and I don’t have the knowledge to tell you about the contents of those books. Don’t hurt yourself, ask your doctor.

An example: blood donation

First, I wanted to lead with an example of how the wrong methods can cripple a conclusion and end up with bad results.

Now, blood donation looks like it is very, very good for male health outcomes. From “Blood donation and blood donor mortality after adjustment for a healthy donor effect.” with 1,182,495 participants (N=1,182,495) published in 2015 (note it’s just an abstract, but the abstract has the data we want):

» For each additional annual blood donation, the all-cause mortality RR (relative risk) is 0.925, with a 95% CI (confidence interval) from 0.906 to 0.943[2]. I’ll be summarizing this information as RR = 0.925[0.906, 0.943] throughout the post.

(Unless otherwise stated, in this post an RR measure will refer to all-cause mortality, and X[Y, Z] CI reports will be values followed by 95% confidence intervals. There will also be references to OR (odds ratio) and HR (hazard ratio)).

There’s even a well fleshed out mechanism, where iron ends up oxidizing parts of the cardiovascular system and damaging it, and hence doing regular blood donation removes excess blood iron.

But there are some possible confounders:

  • blood donation carries some of the most stringent health screens most people face, which results in a healthy donor effect,
  • altruism could be correlated with conscientiousness, which might affect health outcomes.

The study cited earlier is observational: they’re looking at existing data gathered in the course of normal donation and studying it to see if there’s an effect. In order to make a blanket recommendation that men should donate blood at some regular interval, what we really want is to isolate the effect of donation by putting people through the normal intake and screening process, and then right before putting the needle in randomize for actually taking the donation or not, or even stick the needle in and not actually draw blood.

(Note that randomization is not strictly better than observational studies: observations can provide insights that randomization would miss[3], and a rigorous RCT might not match real world implementations. Nevertheless, most of the time I want a randomized trial.)

No one had done an RCT (randomized controlled trial) in this fashion, and I expect any such study to have a really hard time passing an ethics board when I get numerous calls to help alleviate emergency blood need at a number of times throughout the year.

However, Quebec noticed that their screening procedures were too strict: a large group of people were being rejected when they were in fact perfectly healthy. The rejection trigger didn’t appear to otherwise correlate with health, so this was about as good a randomized experiment as we were going to get. Their results were reported in “Iron and cardiac ischemia: a natural, quasi-random experiment comparing eligible with disqualified blood donors” (2013, N=63,246):

» Donors vs nondonors, RR = 1.02[0.92, 1.13]

In other words, there was basically no correlation. In fact, in another section of the paper the authors could get the correlation to come back by slicing their data in a way that better matched the healthy donor process.

The usual hallmarks of science laypeople can pick apart aren’t there: the N is large, there’s a large cross-section of the community (no elderly Hispanic women effect) and there’s no way to even fudge our interpretation of the numbers: we’re not beholden to science’s fetish with p=0.05, so failing the 95% CI could be okay if it were definitely leaning in the right direction. But it’s almost exactly in the middle. The effect isn’t there or is so tiny that it’s not worth considering.

So that’s an example of how things can look like great interventions, and then turn out to have basically no effect. With our skeptic hats firmly in place, let’s dive into the rest!

Easy, Effective

Vitamin D

Vitamin D gets the stamp of approval from both Cochrane and Gwern[4]. Lots of big randomized studies have been done with vitamin D supplementation, so the effect size is pretty pinned down.

From “Vitamin D supplementation for prevention of mortality in adults” (2012, N=95,286, Cochrane):

» Supplementation with vitamin D vs none, RR = 0.94[0.91, 0.98]

Another meta-analysis used by Gwern, “Vitamin D with calcium reduces mortality: patient level pooled analysis of 70,528 patients from eight major vitamin D trials” (2012, N=70,528):

» Supplementation with vitamin D vs none, HR = 0.93[0.88, 0.99]

You might think that one side of the CI is pretty bad, since RR = 0.98 means the intervention is almost the same as the control. On the other hand, (1) wait until you read the rest of the post (2) keep in mind that it’s very cheap to supplement vitamin D. Your local drugstore probably has a years worth for $20. In a pinch, more sunlight also works, but if you have darker skin, sunlight is less effective.

If you’re interested, there’s lots of hypothesizing on the mechanisms by which more vitamin D impacts things like cardiovascular health (overview).

(If you want a striking visual example of vitamin D precursors correlating with cancer, there’s a noticable geographic gradient in certain cancer deaths; “An estimate of premature cancer mortality in the U.S. due to inadequate doses of solar ultraviolet-B radiation” (2002) states that some cancers are twice as prevalent in the northern US than the southern. There’s more sun in the south, and sunlight helps synthesize vitamin D. Coincidence?! If you want to, you can see this effect yourself by going to the Cancer Mortality Maps viewer from the National Cancer Institute and taking a look at the bladder, breast, corpus uteri or rectum cancers.)

Difficult, but Effective


Exercising is hard work, but it pays off big.

From “Domains of physical activity and all-cause mortality: systematic review and dose–response meta-analysis of cohort studies” (2011, N=unknown subset of 1,338,143[5]):

» Comparing people that get 300 minutes of moderate-vigorous exercise/week vs sedentary populations, RR = 0.74[0.65, 0.85]

Unfortunately, “moderate-vigorous” is pretty vague, and the number of multiple comparisons being made is breathtaking.

MET-h is a unit of energy expenditure roughly equivalent to sitting and doing nothing for an hour. Converting different exercises (or intensities of exercise) to MET-h measures can allow directly comparing/aggregating different exercise data. This also makes it easier to decide exactly what “moderate-vigorous” exercise is, roughly mapping to less than 3 MET/h for light, 3-6 for moderate, and above 6 for vigorous.

With this in mind, we can get a regression seeing how additional MET-hs impact RR. From the previous study (2011, N=unknown subset of 844,026):

» +4 MET-h/day, RR = 0.90[0.87, 0.92] (roughly mapping to 1h of moderate exercise)

» +7 MET-h/day, RR = 0.83[0.79, 0.87] (roughly mapping to 1h vigorous exercise)

There’s a limit, though: exercising for too long, or too hard, will eventually stop providing returns. The same study places the upper limit at around a maximum RR = 0.65 when comparing the highest and lowest activity levels. The Mayo Clinic in “Exercising for Health and Longevity vs Peak Performance: Different Regimens for Different Goals” recommends capping vigorous exercise at 5 hours/week for longevity.

A quick rule of thumb is that each hour of exercise can return 7x time dividends (news article). This sounds great, but do some math: put this return together with the 5 hours/week limit, assume that you’re 20yo and doing the maximum exercise you can until 60, and this works out to adding roughly 8 years to your life (note that the study the rule of thumb is based on (2012) gives a slightly lower average maximum gain, around 7 years). Remember the Gompertz curve? We can huff and puff to get great RRs, and it only helps a bit. Unfortunate.

(While we’re exercising: keep in mind that losing weight isn’t always good: if you’re already at a health weight and start losing weight without intending to, that could be a sign that you’re sick and don’t know it yet (source).)

Other studies I looked at:

Unfortunately, most of these studies are based on surveys, which have the usual problems with self reports. There are some studies based on measuring VO2max more rigorously as a proxy for fitness, except those have tiny Ns, in the tens if they’re lucky (it’s expensive to measure VO2max!).


Overall, many of these studies are observational and based on self-reports; a few are based on randomized provided food, but the economics dictate they have smaller Ns. I’ve put all the diet-related things together, since in aggregate they are fairly impactful (if difficult to put into practice), but note that some of the subheadings contain less certain results.

Fruit and vegetables

It’s like your childhood authority figures said: eat your vegetables.

From “Fruit and vegetable consumption and mortality from all causes, cardiovascular disease, and cancer: systematic review and dose-response meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies” (2014, N=833,234):

» +1 serving fruit or vegetable/day, HR = 0.95[0.92, 0.98]

Like exercise, fruits/vegetables don’t stack forever either; there’s around a 5 serving/day limit after which effects level off. Still, that adds up to around HR = 0.75, competitive with maximally effective exercise.

Potatoes are a notable exception, having a uniquely high glycemic load among vegetables; this roughly means that your blood sugar will spike after eating potatoes, which seems bad. You can find plenty of debate about whether this is in fact bad[6].

Other reports I looked at:

Red/Processed Meat

You know bacon is bad for you, but… bacon is pretty bad for you.

From “Red Meat and Processed Meat Consumption and All-Cause Mortality: A Meta-Analysis” (2013, N=unknown subset of 1,330,352) effects from both plain red meat (hamburger, steak) and processed red meat (dried, smoked, bacon):

» Highest vs lowest consumption categories[7] for red meat, RR = 1.10[0.98, 1.22]

» Highest vs lowest consumption categories for processed red meat, RR = 1.23[1.17, 1.28]

There isn’t all-cause data I could find on fried foods specifically, but “Intake of fried meat and risk of cancer: A follow-up study in Finland” specifically covers cancer risks (1994, N=9,990):

» Highest vs lowest tetrile fried meat: RR = 1.77[1.11, 2.84]

Note that the confidence intervals are wide: for example, the red meat CI covers 1.0, which is pretty poor (and yet the best all-cause data I could find). If we were strictly following NHST (null hypothesis significance testing), we’d reject this conclusion. However, I’ll begrudgingly accept waggled eyebrows and “trending towards significance”[8].

If you’re paleo, you might not have cause to worry, since you’re probably eating better than most other red meat eaters, but I have no data for your specific situation.

Other reports I looked at:

Fish (+Fish oil)

Fish is pretty good for you! Fish oil might contribute to fish “consumption”.

“Risks and benefits of omega 3 fats for mortality, cardiovascular disease, and cancer: systematic review” (2006, N=unknown subset of 36,913) looked at both fish consumption and fish oil, finding that fish/fish oil weren’t significantly different:

» High omega-3 (both advice to eat more fish, and supplementation) vs low, RR = 0.87[0.73, 1.03]

Note this analysis only included RCTs.

“Association Between Omega-3 Fatty Acid Supplementation and Risk of Major Cardiovascular Disease Events: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis” (2012, N=68,680) looked only at fish oil supplementation:

» Omega-3 supplementation vs none, RR = 0.96[0.91, 1.02]

Note that both of these results have relatively wide CI covering 1.0. Additionally, the two studies seem to differ on the relative effectiveness of fish oil.

There’s plenty of exposition on mechanisms for why fish oil (omega-3 oil) might help in the AHA scientific statement “Fish Consumption, Fish Oil, Omega-3 Fatty Acids, and Cardiovascular Disease”.

Also make sure that you’re not eating mercury laden fish while you’re at it; just because Newton did it doesn’t mean you should.

Other studies I looked at:


This study of 7th Day Adventists by “Nut consumption, vegetarian diets, ischemic heart disease risk, and all-cause mortality: evidence from epidemiologic studies” points in the right direction (1999, N=34,198):

» Eating nuts <1 time/week vs >=5 times/week, fatal heart attack RR ~ 0.5[0.32, 0.75] (estimated from a graph)

However, I don’t trust it. Look at how implausibly low that RR is: eating nuts is better than getting the maximum benefit from exercise? How in the world would that work? Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to find any studies that weren’t confounded by religion, so I just have to stay uncertain for now.


We spend a third of our lives asleep, of course it matters. The easiest thing to measure about sleep is the length, so plenty of studies have been done on that. You want to hit a Goldilocks zone of sleep length, not too short or not too long. The literature calls this the aptly named U-shape response.

What’s too short, or too long? It’s frustrating, because one study’s “too long” can be another study’s “too short”, and vice versa.

However, from “Sleep Duration and All-Cause Mortality: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Prospective Studies” (2010, N=1,382,999):

» Too short (<4-7h), RR = 1.12[1.06, 1.18]

» Too long (>8-12), RR = 1.30[1.22, 1.38]

And from “Sleep duration and mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis” (2009, N=unknown):

» Too short (<7h), RR = 1.10[1.06, 1.15]

» Too long (>9h), RR = 1.23[1.17, 1.30]

So there’s range right around 8 hours that most studies can agree is good.

You might be fine outside of the Goldilocks zone, but if you haven’t made special efforts to get into the zone, you might want to try and get into that 7-9h zone the studies can generally agree on.

Again, most of these studies are survey based. I can’t find the source, but a possible unique confounder is that sleeping unusually long might be a dependent, not independent variable: if you’re sick but don’t know it, one symptom could manifest as sleeping more.

And, if you get enough sleep but feel groggy, you might want to get checked out for sleep apnea.

Other studies I looked at:

Less Effective


The original longevity guide was enthusiastic about flossing. Looking at “Dental Health Behaviors, Dentition, and Mortality in the Elderly: The Leisure World Cohort Study” (2011, N=690), it’s hard not to be:

» Among daily brushers, never vs everyday flossers, HR = 1.25[1.06, 1.48]

Even more exciting is the dental visit results (N=861):

» Dental exam twice/year vs none, HR = 1.48[1.23, 1.79]

However, the study primarily covers the elderly with an average age of 81yo. Sure, one hopes that the effects are universal, but the non-representative population makes it hard to do so. So while flossing looks good, I’m not ready to trust one study, especially when I can’t find a reasonable meta-analysis covering more than a few hundred people.

As a counterpoint, Cochrane looked at flossing specifically in “Flossing to reduce gum disease and tooth decay” (2011, N=1083), finding that there’s weak evidence for reduction in plaque, but basically nothing else.

I’ll keep flossing, but I’m not confident about the impact of doing so.

Other studies I looked at:


Sitting down all day might-maybe-possibly be bad for health outcomes.

There are some studies trying to measure the impact of sitting length. From “Daily Sitting Time and All-Cause Mortality: A Meta-Analysis” (2013, N=595,086):

» +1 hour sitting with >7 hours/day sitting, HR = 1.05[1.02, 1.08]

However, the aptly named “Does physical activity attenuate, or even eliminate, the detrimental association of sitting time with mortality? A harmonised meta-analysis of data from more than 1 million men and women” (2016, N=1,005,791, no full text) claims the correlation only holds at low levels of activity: once people start getting close to the exercise limit, this study found the correlation between sitting and all-cause mortality disappeared.

From “Leisure Time Spent Sitting in Relation to Total Mortality in a Prospective Cohort of US Adults” (2010, N=53,440):

» Sitting >6 hours vs <3 hours/day (leisure time), RR 1.17[1.11, 1.24]

Note that this is the effect for men: the effect for women is larger. Also, this study directly contradicts the other study, claiming that sitting time has an effect on mortality regardless of activity level. And who in the world sits for less than 3 hours/day during their leisure time? Do they just not have leisure time?

Again, these studies were survey based.

The big unanswered question in my mind is whether exercising vigorously will just wipe the need to not sit. So, I’m not super confident you should get a fancy sit-stand desk.

(However, I do know that writing this post meant so much sitting that my butt started to hurt, so even if it’s not for longevity reasons I’m seriously considering it.)

Other reports I looked at:

Air quality

Air quality has a surprisingly small impact on all-cause mortality.

From “Meta-Analysis of Time-Series Studies of Air Pollution and Mortality: Effects of Gases and Particles and the Influence of Cause of Death, Age, and Season” (2011, N=unknown (but aggregated from 109 studies(?!))):

+31.3 μg/m3 PM10RR = 1.02[1.015, 1.024]

+1.1 ppm CO, RR = 1.017[1.012, 1.022]

+24.0 ppb NO2RR = 1.028[1.021, 1.035]

+31.2 ppb O3 daily max, RR = 1.016[1.011, 1.020]

+9.4 ppb SO2RR = 1.009[1.007, 1.012]

(I’m deriving the RR from percentage change in mortality.)

By itself the RR increments aren’t overwhelming. But since it’s expressed as an increment, if there are 50 increments present in a normal day that we can filter out ourselves, then that adds up to some real impact. The increments aren’t tiny compared to absolute values, though. For example, maximum values in NYC during the 2016 summer:

PM10 ~ 58 μg/m3

CO ~ 1.86 ppm

NO2 ~ 60.1 ppb

O3 ~ 86 ppb

SO2 ~ 7.3 ppb

So the difference between a heavily trafficked metro area and a clean room is maybe twice the percentage impacts we’ve seen, which just doesn’t add up to very much. Beijing is another story, but even then I (baselessly) question the ability of household filtration systems to make a sizable dent in interior air quality.

There are plenty of possible confounders: it seems the way these sorts of studies are run is by looking at city-level pollution and mortality data, and running the regressions on those data points.

Other studies I looked at:

Hospital Choice

Going to the hospital isn’t great: medical professionals do the best they can, but they’re still human and can still screw up. It’s just that the stakes are really high. Like, people recommend marking on yourself which side a pending operation should be done on, to reduce chances of catastrophic error.

Quantitatively, “A New, Evidence-based Estimate of Patient Harms Associated with Hospital Care” (2013) says that 1% of deaths in the hospital are adverse deaths deaths. However, note that many adverse deaths weren’t plausibly preventable by anyone other than Omega.

If you’re having a high stakes operation done, “Operative Mortality and Procedure Volume as Predictors of Subsequent Hospital Performance” (2006) recommends taking into account a hospital’s historical morbidity rate and volume for that procedure: if you’re getting heart surgery, you want to go to the hospital that handles lots of heart surgeries, and has done so successfully in the past.

Other studies I looked at:

Green tea

Unfortunately, there’s no all-cause mortality data on the impact of tea in general, green tea in particular. We might expect it to have an effect through flavonoids.

As a proxy, though, we can look at blood pressure, where lower blood pressure is better. From “Green and black tea for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease” (2013, N=821):

» Systolic blood pressure, -3.18[-5.25, -1.11] mmHg

» Diastolic blood pressure, -3.42[-4.54, -2.30] mmHg

There’s a smaller effect from black tea, around half the size.

Cochrane also looked at green tea prevention rates for different cancers. From “Green tea for the prevention of cancer” (2009, N=1.6 million), it’s unclear whether there’s any strong evidence of effect for any cancer, in addition to there being a possible garden of forking paths.

If you’re already drinking tea, like me, then switching to green tea is low cost despite any questions about efficacy.

Borderline efficacy

Baby Aspirin

The practice of taking tiny daily doses of aspirin, mainly to combat cardiovascular disease. From “Low-dose aspirin for primary prevention of cardiovascular events in Japanese patients 60 years or older with atherosclerotic risk factors: a randomized clinical trial.” (2014, N=14,464):

» Aspirin vs none, aggregate cardiovascular mortality HR = 0.94[0.77, 1.15]

That CI width is very concerning; you can cut the data so you get subsets of cardiovascular mortality to become significant, like looking at only non-fatal heart attacks, but it’s not like there’s a breath of correcting for multiple comparisons anywhere, and the study was stopped early due to “likely futility”.

The side effects of baby aspirin are also concerning. Internal bleeding is possible (Mayo clinic article), since aspirin is acting as a blood thinner; however, it isn’t too terrible, since it’s only a 0.13% increase in “serious bleeding” that resulted in hospitalization (from “Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Adverse Events of Low-dose Aspirin and Clopidogrel in Randomized Controlled Trials” (2006)).

More concerning is the stopping effect. “Low-dose aspirin for secondary cardiovascular prevention – cardiovascular risks after its perioperative withdrawal versus bleeding risks with its continuation – review and meta-analysis” looked into cardiovascular risks when stopping a baby aspirin regime before surgery (because of increased internal bleeding risks), and found that a low single-digit percentage of heart attacks happened shortly after aspirin discontinuation. (I’m having trouble interpreting this report.)

I imagine this is why professionals start recommending baby aspirin to folks above 50yo, since the risks of heart attack start to obviously outweigh the costs of taking aspirin constantly. And speaking of cost: baby aspirin is monetarily inexpensive.

Other studies I looked at:

Meal Frequency

Some people recommend eating smaller meals more frequently, particularly to lose weight, which is tied to health outcomes.

From “Effects of meal frequency on weight loss and body composition: a meta-analysis” (2015, N=unknown):

» +1 meal/day, -0.27 ± 0.11 kg of fat mass

It’s not really an overwhelming result; taking into account the logistical overhead of planning out extra meals in a society based on 3 square meals a day, is it really worth it to lose maybe half a kilogram of fat?

Other studies I looked at:

Caloric Restriction

Most longevity folks are really on board the caloric restriction (CR) train. There’s an appealing mechanism where lower metabolic rates produce fewer free radicals to damage cellular machinery, and it’s the exact amount of effort that one might expect from a longevity intervention that actually works.

A common example of CR is the Japanese Ryukyu islands, where there are a surprising number of really old people, who eat a surprisingly low number of calories. However, say it with me: con-found-ed to he-ll! The fact that a single isolated subsection of a single ethnic group have a correlation between CR and longevity doesn’t make me confident that I too can practice CR and tell death to fuck off for a few more years.

So we want studies. Unfortunately, most humans fall into the state of starving and lacking essential nutrients, or having enough calories and nutrients, but almost never the middle ground of having too few calories but all the essential nutrients (2003, literature review). Then there’s the ethics of getting humans to agree to a really long study that controls their diet, so let’s look at animal studies first.

However, different rhesus monkey studies give different answers.

» From “Impact of caloric restriction on health and survival in rhesus monkeys from the NIA study” (2012, N=unknown, no full text), there was no longevity increase from young or old rhesus monkeys.

» However, from “Caloric restriction delays disease onset and mortality in rhesus monkeys” (2009, N=76), there was a 30% reduction in death over 20 years.

Thankfully they’re both randomized, but it doesn’t really help when they end up with conflicting conclusions. You’d hope there would be better support even in animal models for something that should have huge impacts.

What else could we look at? We’re not going to wait for an 80-year human study to finish (the ongoing CALERIE study comes close), so maybe we could look at intermediate markers that are known to have an impact on longevity and go from there.

A CALERIE checkpoint study, “A 2-Year Randomized Controlled Trial of Human Caloric Restriction: Feasibility and Effects on Predictors of Health Span and Longevity” (2015, N=218), looks at the impact of 25% CR on blood pressure:

» Mean blood pressure change, around -3 mmHg (read from a chart)

Pretty good, but that’s also around the impact of green tea. Then, there’s the implied garden of forking paths bringing in multiple comparisons, since the study in the same cluster looks at multiple types of cholesterol and insulin resistance markers.

Finally, there’s the costs: you have to exert plenty of willpower to actually accomplish CR. For something with such large costs, the evidence base just isn’t there.


Chocolate has some impact on blood pressure. “Effect of cocoa on blood pressure” (2017, N=1804, Cochrane) finds that eating chocolate lowers your blood pressure:

Systolic blood pressure, -1.76[-3.09, -0.43] mmHg

Diastolic blood pressure, -1.76[-2.57,-0.94] mmHg

However, if you’re normotensive then there’s no impact on blood pressure, and only taking into account hypertensives the effect jumps to -4 mmHg. Feel free to keep eating your chocolate, but don’t expect miracles.

Social Interaction

Having a social life looks like a really great intervention.

From “Social Relationships and Mortality Risk: A Meta-analytic Review” (2010, N=308,849):

» Weaker vs stronger relationships, OR = 1.50[1.42, 1.59]

And from “Social isolation, loneliness, and all-cause mortality in older men and women” (2013, N=6500):

» Highest vs other quintiles of social isolation, HR = 1.26[1.08, 1.48]

And from “Marital status and mortality in the elderly: A systematic review and meta-analysis” (2007, N>250,000, no full text):

» Married vs all currently non-married, RR = 0.88[0.85, 0.91]

You can propose a causal mechanism off the top of your head: people with more friends are less depressed which just has good health outcomes.

However, the alarm bells should be ringing: is the causal relationship backwards? Are healthier people more prone to socializing? Do the confounders never end? The kicker is that all these studies are looking at the elderly (above 50yo at least), which reduces their general applicability even more.

Other studies I looked at:

Cellphone Usage

Remember when everyone was worried that chronic cellphone usage was going to give us all cancer?

Well “Mobile Phone Use and Risk of Tumors: A Meta-Analysis” (2008, N=37,916) says it actually does:

» Overall tumor, OR = 1.18[1.04, 1.34]

» Malignant tumor, OR = 1.00[0.89, 1.13]

Since we’re worried about malignant tumors, it’s hard to say we should be worried by cellphones.

Other studies I looked at:


Confusing thirst with hunger

Some people recommend taking a drink when you feel hungry, the idea being that thirst sometimes manifests as hunger, and you can end up eating fewer calories.

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find any studies that tried to look into this specifically: the closest thing I found was “Hunger and Thirst: Issues in measurement and prediction of eating and drinking” (2010) which reads like a freshman philosophy paper, and “Thirst-drinking, hunger-eating; tight coupling?” (2009, N=50?) which fails to persuade me about… anything, really.

Stress Reduction in a Pill

There are some “natural” plants rumored to have stress reduction effects, Rhodiola rosea and Ashwagandha root.

Meta-analysis on Rhodiola, “The effectiveness and efficacy of Rhodiola rosea L.: A systematic review of randomized clinical trials” (2011, N=unknown) found that Rhodiola had effects on something, but the study was basically a fishing expedition. Even the study name betrays that it doesn’t matter what it’s effective at, just that it’s effective.

Another meta-analysis, “Rhodiola rosea for physical and mental fatigue: a systematic review” (2012, N>176) looked specifically at fatigue and found mixed results.

Meta-analysis on Ashwagandha, “Prospective, Randomized Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study of Safety and Efficacy of a High-Concentration Full-Spectrum Extract of Ashwagandha Root in Reducing Stress and Anxiety in Adults” (2012, N=64) found reductions in self-reported stress scales and cortisol levels (and with RCTs!).

Look, the Ns are tiny, and the studies the meta-analyses are based on are old, and who knows if the Russians were conducting their side of the studies right (Rhodiola originated in Russia, so many of the studies are Russian).

I’m including this because I got excited when I saw it in the original longevity post: stress reduction in a pill! Why do the hard work of meditation when I could just pop some pills (a very American approach, I know)? It just doesn’t look like the evidence base is trustworthy, and my personal experiences confirm that if there’s an effect it’s subtle (Whole Foods carries both Rhodiola and Ashwagandha, so you can try them out for yourself for like $20).

Other studies I looked at:

Water Filters

Unfortunately, there’s basically no research on health effects from water filtration in 1st world countries above and beyond municipal water treatment. Most filtration research is either about how adding any filtration to 3rd world countries has massive benefits, or how bacteria can grow on activated carbon granules. Good to know, but on reflection did we expect bacteria to stop growing wherever it damn well pleases?

So keep your Brita filter, but it’s not like we know for sure whether it’s doing anything either. Probably not worth it to go out of your way to get one.

Hand sanitizer

So I keep hand sanitizer in multiple places in my apartment, but does it do anything?

I only found “Effectiveness of a hospital-wide programme to improve compliance with hand hygiene” (2000, N=unknown), which focused on hospital health outcomes impacted by hand washing adherence. First, not all doctors wash their hands regularly (40% compliance rates in 2011) (scholarly overview), which is worrying. Second, there’s a positive trend between hand washing (including hand sanitizers) and outcomes:

» From moving 48% hand washing adherence to 66%, the hospital-wide infection rate decreased from 16.9% to 9.9%.

However, keep in mind that home and work are usually less adverse environments than a hospital; there are fewer people with compromised immune systems, there are fewer gaping wounds (hopefully). The cited result is probably an upper bound for us non-hospital folk.

(There’s also this cute study: hand sanitizer contains chemicals that make it easier for other chemicals to penetrate the skin, and freshly printed receipts have plenty of BPA on the paper. This means that sanitizing and then handling a receipt will lead to a spike of BPA in your bloodstream. I presume that relative to eating with filthy hands the BPA impact is negligible, but damn it, researchers are doing these cute small scale studies instead of the huge randomized trials I want.)

Other studies I looked at:

Doctor visits

Should you visit your doctor for a annual checkup? My conscientious side says “of course”, but my contrarian side says “of course not”.

Well, “General health checks in adults for reducing morbidity and mortality from disease” (2012, N=182,880, Cochrane) says:

» Annual checkup vs no exam, RR = 0.99[0.95, 1.03]

So basically no impact! Ha, take that, couple hour appointment!

However, The Chicago Tribune notes some mitigating factors, like the main studies the meta-analysis is based on are old, like 1960s old.


I didn’t look at metformin in my main study period: I knew it had some interesting results, but it also caused gastrointestinal distress, better known as diarrhea. It brings to mind the old quip: metformin doesn’t make you live longer, it just feels like it[9].

However, while I was reading Tools of TitansDominic D’Agostino floated an intriguing idea: he would titrate the metformin dose from some tiny amount until he started exhibiting GI symptoms, and then dialed it back a touch. I don’t think people have started even doing small scale studies around this, but it might be worth looking into.


There’s some stuff that doesn’t have a cost-benefit calculation attached, but I’m including anyways. Or, there are things that won’t help you, but might help the people around you.


From “Effectiveness of Bystander-Initiated Cardiac-Only Resuscitation for Patients With Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest” (2007, N=4902 heart attacks):

» Cardiac-only CPR vs no CPR, OR 1.72[1.01, 2.95]

So the odds ratio looks pretty good, except that CI is really wide, and the in absolute terms most people still die from heart attacks: administering CPR raises the chances of survival from 2.5% to 4.3%. So, spending more than a few hours practicing CPR is chasing some really tail risks[10].

However, have two people in your friend group that know CPR, and they can provide a potential buff to everyone around them (two, because you can’t give CPR to yourself). In a similar vein, the Heimlich maneuver might be good to know.

Other studies I looked at:

Smoke Alarm testing

Death by fire is not super common. That said, these days it’s cheap to set up a reminder to check your alarm on some long interval, like 6 months.


It’s unlikely you’ll need to do trauma medicine in the field, but if you’re paranoid about tail risk then quikclot (and competitors) can serve as a buttress against bleeding out. Some folks claim that tourniquets are better, but the trauma bandages are a bit more versatile, since you can’t tourniquet your chest.

It’s not magical: since the entire thing becomes a clot, it’s basically just moving a life threatening wound from the field into a hospital. Also make sure to get the bandage form, not the powder; some people have been blinded when the wind blew the clot precursor into their eyes.


Of course, this post wouldn’t be complete without a nod to cryonics. It’s the ultimate backstop. If there all else fails, there’s one last option to make a Hail Mary throw into the future.

Obviously there are no empirical RR values I can give you: you’ll have to estimate your own probabilities and weigh your own values.

WTF, Science?

The overarching story is that we cannot trust anything, because almost all the studies are observational and everything could be confounded to hell by things outside the short list that every study incants they controlled for and we would have no idea.

Like Gwern says, even the easiest things to randomize, like giving people free beer, aren’t being done, much less on a scale that could give us some real confidence.

There is too little disregard for the garden of forking paths in this post-replication crisis world, and many studies are focused on subgroups that plausibly won’t generalize (ex. the elderly).

And what’s up with the heterogeneity in meta-analyses? If every single analysis results in “these results displayed significant heterogeneity”, then what’s the point? What are we doing wrong?

What am I doing?

Maybe you want to know what me myself am doing; I suspect people would be interested for the same reason journalists intersperse a perfectly good technical thriller with human interest vignettes, so here:

  • Continuing vitamin D supplementation, and getting a couple minutes of sun when I can.
  • Making an effort to eat more vegetables, less bacon/potatoes (to be honest, I’m more optimistic about cutting out the bacon than potatoes), more fish, and replacing more of my snacking with walnuts.
  • Keep taking fish oil.
  • Exercise better: I haven’t upped the intensity of my routine in a while. I probably need some more aerobic work, too.
  • Tell myself I should iron out my sleep schedule.
  • Get myself a standing desk for home: I have a standing desk at work, so I’m already halfway there.
  • Buy an air filter: low impact, but whatever, gimmie my percentage points of RR.
  • Switch from drinking black tea to green tea.
  • Cut back on donating blood. I’ll keep doing it because it’s also wrapped up in “doing good things”, but I was doing it partly selfishly based on the non-quasi-randomized studies. Besides, I have shitty blood.


Effective and certain:

  • Supplement vitamin D.

Effective, possibly confounded:

  • Exercise vigorously 5 hours/week.
  • Eat more fruits and vegetables, more fish, less red meat, cut out the bacon.
  • Get 7-9 hours of sleep.

Less effective, less certain:

  • Brush your teeth and floss daily.
  • Try to not sit all day.
  • Regarding air quality, don’t live in Beijing.

There is also a presentation.

[1]  If you need me to go through the science of smoking, then let me know and I can do so: I mostly skipped it because I’m already not smoking, and the direction of my study was partly determined by what could be applicable to me. As a non-smoker, I didn’t even notice it was missing until a late editing pass.

[2]  The abstract reports results in terms of percentage mortality decrease, which I believe maps to the same RR I gave.

[3]  If I remember correctly, Due Diligence talks about this.

[4]  The Cochrane Group does good, rigorous analysis work. Gwern is an independent researcher in my in group, and he seems to be better at this sort of thing than I am.

[5]  Annoyingly, some meta-analyses don’t report the aggregate sample sizes for analyses that only use a subset of the analyzed reports.

[6]  For example, Scott’s review of The Hungry Brain points out that some people think potatoes are great at satiating appetites, so it might in fact work out in favor of being okay.

[7]  These category comparisons are loose, since some studies will report quartiles and others will use tertiles, so the analysis simply goes with the largest effect possible across all studies.

[8]  Yes, it’s fucking stupid I have to stoop to this.

[9]  Originally “marriage doesn’t make you live longer, it just feels like it.”

[10]  I know, it’s ironic that I’m calling this a tail risk, when we’re pushing something as stubborn as the Gompertz curve.

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9s of Cats

Epistemic status: value judgement.

The internet has a lot of cat pictures.

Let's say I upload a cat picture to Amazon's Simple Storage Service (S3). As of writing, their marketing materials claim that a stored object is 99.999999999% likely to stay securely stored in a year, which translates into a 50% chance of losing a given cat picture once every 70 billion years years[1]. In storage/networking jargon, this is 11 9's of durability, a sort of fast n' dirty logarithmic shorthand for stating how reliable a service is found by counting the 9s in a percentage. For example, 99.9% would be 3 9's.

This doesn't mean that Amazon is super optimistic and thinks the chance of total nuclear war or perfect storm pandemic is some tiny percentage. It's just that if civilization does collapse then former customers would want Amazon warriors over Amazon refunds. Conditional on the continued existence of Amazon, the business, they'll probably keep doing crazy replication schemes[2] to maintain those crazy guarantees.

However, smaller apocalypses will leave Amazon broken while humanity lives on[3]. In these futures, I could easily imagine children gathered around a working fin de sicle computer wondering why in the world this cat looks so grumpy?

So certain cat photos might in fact have 11 9's of durability, enough to live 9 lives over and over. What about humans?

What about humans? Looking at the 2014 CDC death rates, there are 823.7 deaths/100,000 people, working out to a 99.18% annual durability for a randomly selected human (American), for a measly 2 9s of durability. If you show someone a cat picture when they are 12, at best you can expect them to hold onto that memory with 2 9s of durability, because after that they are likely dead[4].

Cat pictures hold together with 11 9s: humans hold together with 2 9s.

It seems a little incongruous, yes? One is a chuckle-worthy image, and the other is a person.

I mean, there is a good reason, one is much more complicated than the other. Grumpy Cat herself will die far before her image does (maybe that's why she's grumpy?). We can barely simulate nematode neural systems, and even simply finding a human's brain connectome (connection graph) is still prohibitively expensive, much less running the entire graph forwards in time[5].

Instead of doing the naive thing easily suggestible by the S3 analogy and trying to scan people to replicate them across availability zones[6], we could simply extend their lives. For example, we boosted the general US life expectancy from 40 years to 80 years since the early 1800s. But note:

y(t) = a \cdot e^{-b \cdot e^{-c \cdot t}}

It's not even "fuck the natural logarithm", it's "fuck the double logarithm". If we find some fantastic intervention in a pill that reduces our relative risk of death by half without any side effects, that halves the b value, which means this only moves the curve over a few years[10]:

A graph showing two curves, one with normal humans,
and the other with humans that have half the relative risk (RR)

We'll somehow need to invalidate this model with our mental fists.

(At this point, I should point out that there are some people working on the problem with an eye towards halting or reversing aging[11], like The SENS Foundation and The Methuselah Foundation. They are nonprofits, and could always use more money: if nothing else, they could make a bigger incentive prize of the XPrize sort.)

But I didn't write this post to complain about our problems, I wrote this post because:

  1. coining "9s of cats" was too tempting to pass up.
  2. consider this a weak post-pre-registration[12] of an informal study I did for well supported longevity actions we common folk can do today. Sure, the things we do are still subject to the steep demands of the Gompertz curve, but we want to maximize our chances of hitting Kurzweil's escape velocity if/when it happens.

Stay tuned.


[1]  Note that this is for a specific object, and not for a set of objects. If you have 10 trillion objects, you might see one of them go missing in a year, and that would be within the guarantee.

[2]  If you want an example of the sorts of replication large tech companies use, you can check out Facebook's blob store.

[3]  Note that while I work for a competitor of Amazon, I don't intend for this to be a pleasant daydream, but a nightmarish one. Also, it bears repeating that I do not presume to speak for my employer, etc etc.

[4]  This doesn't even include things like Alzheimers, which destroy the people without destroying their bodies.

[5]  Contrast this with genome sequencing costs, which have dived faster than exponentially. Today, you can get your genome sequenced for around $1k (the cost is sitting behind some cost request, but I've heard from biologists that Illumina whole-genome sequencing is around that much. Veritas Genetics also has a quote for around that much). It's possible that high resolution scanning technology will hit a similar trend, but it might not.

[6]  Availability zones: broad sectors with non-overlapping support, the theory being that bringing down one zone doesn't bring down the others. Concretely, it would be harder to kill you for good if you had copies living in both Europe and Asia.

[7]  Quip appropriately lifted from Ra, the Space Magic chapter.

[8]  To be fair, that's going from "lol leeches for everyone" to "well, let's scrape your bones out and put them in another person, and hey presto, they stopped dying!".

[9]  More by Gwern on his longevity page.

[10]  Graphic generated using an R+ggplot2 script, available as a Github Gist. I use the same curve that Gwern does circa 2017.

[11]  There are arguments against extending human lifespans, like overcrowding, but that's silly. Droning on about the sanctity of death because it's the Dark Ages is fine, but defaulting to death because oh no there are problems to overcome is a damn defeatist attitude. If you haven't read Bostrom's The Fable of the Dragon Tyrant, it's a gentle storytale introduction to non-deathism.

[12]  A pre-registration, so I can't just sweep things under the table, and weak, because I've already done the bulk of the research and analysis.

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Subdermal Scientific Delivery

Epistemic status: crap armchair theorizing.

PutANumOnIt points out that psychology is broken. Having read Robyn Dawes’ House of Cards and Andrew Gelman’s post on the replication crisis, I agree with him, it is kind of crappy that it’s been years since the replication crisis and still nothing seems to have changed.

However, I disagree with the shape of his reaction, both online and in person (I was in the same room with him and the psychology student). What he said was true and necessary, but his frustration wasn’t usefully channeled. I think that adding the 3rd Scott Alexander comment requirement[1], kindness, would have at least very minutely helped move us towards a world of better science.

Why kindness? Well, how could we fix psychology without it? Some fun ideas:

  • The government could set higher standards for the science it funds.
  • Scientific journals could uphold higher standards.
  • The universities that host the psychology professors could start demanding higher standards from the professors, like for granting tenure.
  • The APA (American Psychological Association) could publish guidelines pushing for higher standards[2].
  • Psychology curriculum writers could emphasize statistics more.

If we could do any of these with a wave of a wand, any one of these would… well, wouldn’t end the crisis, but it would push things in the right direction.

However, we don’t have a wand, so I’m not confident any of these are going to happen with the prevailing business as usual.

  • The journals, APA, and curriculum writers solutions are recursive: the psychologists themselves are integral parts of those processes. It’s possible to push on non-recursive parts, like getting a key textbook writer to include an extra chapter on probabilistic pitfalls[3], but trying to hook a key figure is difficult[4].
  • Curriculum writers set their sights on the next generation, not the current one. It seems like the curriculum is already slowly changing, but waiting for the entire field to advance “1 death at a time” is kind of slow.
  • The government is going to move slowly, and special interests like pharmaceutical companies invested in softer standards would throw up (probably non-obvious) roadblocks. Also, the APA has much more cachet with the government than me or Andrew Gelman. David and Goliath is a morality tale, not a blueprint for wild success.

    Or, more concretely, how do you get psychologists to not tell their patients to call their congressmen, because they’re being put out of a job as collateral damage in a campaign for better science?[5]

And notice that these all sum up large efforts: what does it mean to convince the government to have higher standards for the science it funds? It’s an opaque monolithic goal with an absolute ton of moving parts behind the scenes, most of which I’m blissfully ignorant of. These actions are so big that it’s easy to give in to the passive psychological warfare (ha!) and give up. It’s The Art of War, convincing people to accept defeat without even fighting by just impressing them with the apparent momentum of the problem. What could one do to turn that juggernaut?

In contrast, I want to focus on the opposite end of the scale; what if we tried to convince our lone psychology graduate student to consider better statistical methods?

But how? If you squint hard enough, it’s a sort of negotiation: we want the student to spend a non-trivial amount of time learning lots of statistics, while the student probably does not want to spend their Friday evenings reading about the how to choose Bayesian priors. We need to convince the student that they should care, if not on Friday evening, then sooner than later.

Let’s borrow some ideas from the nauseatingly self-help book “Getting Past No”:

  1. “Go to the balcony”: make sure to step back and separate the frustration at poor science from the goal of getting better science.
  2. “Step to their side”: I imagine the psychologists would like to do good science, to take pride in their work and have it stand the test of time. However, just telling someone that there’s a replication crisis isn’t helping them deal with it, it’s putting yet another item on their stack full of things all clamoring for their attention while seeming vaguely negative. And how does it go? “No one ever got fired for choosing <field standard here>”. We will want something more positive…
  3. “Build them a golden bridge”: at the very least, we need to make it easy to use the better statistical methods[6], and offer support to those that are interested. Even better would be demonstrating that the methods we’re offering are better than the old and tired methods they’re using: for example, Jaynes recounts a story in “Probability Theory”, where geological scientists accused him of cheating because the Bayesian methods he used simply could not have been that good.

You’ll note that this is super abstract and not at all a blow-by-blow playbook for convincing anyone about scientific processes. Indeed, the entire process of starting with convincing a single graduate student is to figure out what the actual playbook is. Like in startup parlance, “do things that don’t scale”: even if I directly convinced 1 psychologist a day to use better statistical methods, America mints more than 365 psychologists in a year. But, if I instead found a message that tightly fit the profession and then posted that on the internet, there would be a chance that could take off. (More on this in the Appendix.)

At some point, it’s not enough to have a message that can convince graduate students: if we want to have an impact on timescales shorter than a generation, we’ll have to solve the hard problem of changing a field while the most of the same people are working in it. So, an equally hand-wavey game plan for that scenario:

  1. Ideally, get one of their graduate students on board to provide trusted in-house expertise, and to find out what sorts of problems the research group is facing.
  2. Convince the local statistics professor to endorse you: that way, you can get past the first “this guy is a crank” filters.
  3. (¿¿¿) Somehow convince the professor to consider your methods, who probably wants to work more on his next grant application and less on learning arcane statistics. Apply liberal carrot and stick[7] to refocus their attention on the existential threat slowly rolling towards them. (???)

I expect every community organizer to roll their eyes at my amateur hour hand waving around “and then we convince person X”. However, I am confident we do need to do the hard ground work to make the revolution happen.

In the end, I think we hope to make something like one of the following happen:

  • virally spread a 80/20 payload of better statistics among psychologists, and get a silent super majority of psychologists that all adhere on the surface to current institutional norms, but who eventually realize “wait, literally all my colleagues also think our usage of p values is silly” and a fast and bloodless stats revolution can happen.
  • move the psychology Overton window enough that an internal power struggle to institute better practices can plausibly succeed, led by psychologists that want to preserve the validity of their field.
  • in the course of convincing the entire field, figure out how to actually “statistical spearphish” up and coming field leaders, so they can save their field from the top[8].

So when I heard Jacob express a deep frustration to the student conveying “your methods are bad” (true) which was easily interpretable as “you should feel bad” (probably not intended), I saw the first step of the above revolution die on the vine. Telling people to feel bad (even unintentionally) is not how you win friends and influence people! To head off an obvious peanut gallery objection, it’s not like we’re allowing bad epistemology to flourish because oh no someone might find out they were wrong and feel bad so we can’t say anything ever. It is more pragmatic: compare trying to force someone to accept a new worldview, versus guiding them with a Socratic dialog to the X on the map so they unearth the truth themselves.

Maybe the common community that includes Jacob and I don’t want to devote the absolutely ludicrous resources needed towards reforming a field that doesn’t seem to want to save itself[9]. At the very least, though, we should try not to discourage those that come seeking knowledge, as our graduate student was.

And the alternative? That’s easy, we don’t do anything. Just let psychology spew bad results and eventually crash and bleed out, taking lent scientific credibility with it. I don’t think the field is too big to fail, but it sure would be inconvenient if it did.

(And since you’re the sort of person that reads this blog, then I might add that destroying a field focused on human-level minds right as a soft AI take off starts producing human-level complexity minds might be a poor idea[10].)

However, let’s raise the stakes: what if it’s not just psychology? I have a friend working in another soft-ish science field, closer to biology, and he reports problems there too. An upcoming post will in passing point out some problematic medical research. Again, I don’t think destroying psychology would bring down the entire scientific enterprise, but I do think destroying all fields as soft as biology would. So saving psychology is a way to find out if we can save science from statistical post-modernism; as the song goes “if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere”.

Maybe I’ll take up the cause. Maybe not[11]. If I do, more on this later.

Appendix: Other Actions, Other Considerations

Not everything is trying to convince people in 1-on-1 chats or close quarters presentations/workshops. Especially once we figure out what the scientists need and how we can get it to them, I think we’ll need:

  • better statistical material support geared towards working scientists. Similar to the website idea floated earlier in the post, having a central place that has all the practical wisdom will make it easier to scale.
  • provide better statistical packages that aren’t arcane and insane (looking at you, R), and do The Right Thing by default, and warn when you’re doing the wrong thing and why it is wrong. However, this will likely end up being in the existing statistical ecosystems like R, since that’s where the users are. Similar to the previous point, this also includes better tutorial and usage support.

Other things would help, but are harder in ways I don’t even know how to start solving:

  • Like House of Cards recommends, we could not require therapists to do original research. That’s like requiring medical students to get unrelated undergrad degrees for a touch of class around the office: expensive, inflating the need for positive research, and of dubious help. Yes, reducing credentialism is difficult.
  • Stop requiring positive results for publication. This is the problem for most scientific fields, because you need publication to become a PhD, and you need positive results to publish because negative results aren’t exciting. So you get p-hacking to get published, because you’ve told people “lol sink or swim” and by god they’re going to bring illegal floaties.
  • Or, give negative replications more weight/publication room. This would have the negative effect that it’ll probably increase animosity in the field, and professionals don’t want that, so there will still be costs to overcome. Changing the culture to detach yourself from your results will be… difficult.

[1]  Scott Alexander’s blog, Slate Star Codex, has a comment policy requiring comments be true, necessary, or kind, with at least two of those attributes.

[2]  Sure, guidelines don’t cause higher standards directly, but it makes it much easier to convince people that pay attention, especially those that aren’t already entrenched.

[3]  This specific strategy is additionally prone to failure since teachers pick and choose what material to use from the textbook buffet, so a standalone section on statistics would likely go unused. An entire textbook using unfamiliar statistics would be an even tougher sell.

[4]  In case it’s not clear: trying to convince key figures that they should do a thing is difficult, because if they were easy to convince, then every crank that walked into their office could have the key figure off on their own personal goose chase.

[5]  Yes, there isn’t a 1-to-1 mapping between demanding better statistics and putting therapists out of their job. However, if things have to become legislative, then it seems likely the entire field of psychology will be under attack, with non-trivial airtime going towards people with an axe to grind about psychology. And heaven forbid it become a partisan issue, but when has heaven ever cared?

[6]  In this regard, Stan by Andrew Gelman and co looks pretty interesting, even if I have no idea how to use it.

[7]  Yes, carrot and stick. We’ll need to introduce discussion of negative consequences sooner or later: if not the future destruction of science, then maybe something about their legacy or pride, or whatever.

[8]  Unlikely for the same reasons included in a previous footnote, but included for completeness.

[9]  The field as a whole, not counting individual people and groups.

[10]  A thousand and one objections for why this is a bad analogy spring to mind, but I think we could agree that conditional on this scenario, it couldn’t be worse to have a functioning field of psychology than not.

[11]  Remember, aversion to “someone has to, and no one else will”.

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The Future of Football is too Near

Epistemic status: opinions and ranting

What does the future of football look like? Yes, it is totally about football; it starts out weird, just stick with it and you’ll get to the football[1].

Well, the rest of this post is about that story, so… spoilers ahoy.

Didn’t expect your football with a big dollop of science fiction, huh? I generally enjoyed it, which is why I made you read it: the narrative is great at progressively painting[2] an increasingly weird world, using multiple short stories to sketch out the implications of the “what if everyone stopped dying?” high concept. Some parts were cringe worthy: I would expect “if you think about it, everything is a miracle” to be overlaid on nature scenery in a flowing font and shared among people that think crystals affect your chi. Some of it was brilliant: I was a fan of using indentation/color to represent different speakers, instead of wading through “he said, she said”, which is a mechanic I hope to steal.

But you’ve read the story, you already know this. Instead, what I want to do is explore some external relationships to the story:

  1. The author did not converse with the existing universe of science fiction. If you’re going to write science fiction, especially utopic science fiction, then not engaging with existing concepts and utopias just raises endless questions. In my case, it definitely left me with a sense of fridge logic.
  2. The author sketches a world, and raises interesting questions in the tradition of science fiction that comments more about our current world and less about the world to come. Unfortunately, there’s too much emphasis on the commentary part of the story, and not on the story part. The author didn’t dialog with his characters to find out what they wanted, and instead just used his characters as a mouthpiece, which was distracting[3].

On Boredom

Much of the story revolves around people that have lived a long time, and expect to live forever. Nothing else about them has been changed, though, and this means that suddenly human attention spans are a lot shorter than their lives, leading to looming boredom as they quickly (relative to their lifespan) run out of things to do, leading to people sitting in caves and playing the same hand held video game for hundreds of years at a time in order to stretch out the novelty value.

If you squint in just the right way, it’s a sort of crazy mirror metaphor for our lives. We joke about multiples of internet years in a calendar year, and feel a weary sense that we’ve seen it all[4], that Reddit is full of reposts and that meme is so last week. We’re the ones running out of things to do, playing games that look suspiciously similar to games made decades ago while sitting in our (man) caves.

It’s a cute thought, but I reject the notion that the best humanity could do was putting a cannon on a mountain. For example, at least one of my friends would be out driving a car in real life Rocket League, complete with giant exploding ball and a 3rd person follower camera drone, with a slavish attention to using just the right materials in order to match the game physics. Okay, fine, Rocket League is car soccer, so obviously a sci-fi story about football wouldn’t cover any Rocket League related shenanigans. However, spaceball? Roboball, either of the Frozen Cortex or NFL robot mascot variety (limbs are open season!)? Mech Warrior ball? Mariana trench ball, with a genetically modified angler fish ball?

I mean, points for putting a restaurant on a football field, but that’s just scratching the surface for all the different things you could do that would still resemble football in some shape or form.

And outside of football, there’s just so much to do. It’s the post-scarcity far future, the wish-granting telephones are raining outside. And, well… once you’ve see what can be done, why would you go back to playing football?

  • In-story: re-freeze the ice caps and reclaim New York City. The most brute force solution is using sun shades, which is well within their technological grasp. Sure, the author wanted to advertise for climate change action, but the incongruity of “humanity has done everything and is now bored” vs “lol NYC is underwater can’t do anything about that” is jarring.
  • In-story: throw the space probes some extra batteries, or a big-ass reactor. I appreciate the in-narrative way of ending the story, but again, it just makes the humans look incompetent or uncaring.
  • In-story: become a “cyborg with laser cannons for arms and shit”. People were putting magnets inside of themselves years ago, and if they couldn’t die of sepsis, why would they stop there?
  • I refuse to believe that nerds did not get together, say “damn, we’re in a post-scarcity economy! What do we do?” and then not build a Niven-class ringworld around the sun. Or re-enact all of Star Wars, but with fully functional ships. Don’t think people would go through the work to do this? I present to you Ren Faires, Civil War re-enactments, and intricate cosplays, which most of these people are doing without a reasonable expectation of living forever.
  • Or that someone didn’t sit down and think “man, you know what a random planet needs? A huge ass blue monolith! It’s an artistic statement!” like in Zima Blue.
  • Terraform Mars[5], or uplift life on Earth, like in the aptly named Uplift series. Or seed a planet, and try to fast forward evolution[6][7]. We could call it evoball: first one to make a species that can win a football game against humans wins.
  • Maybe physics is only local: how can you be sure? What if the Zones of Thought is an actual thing? You can only check by traveling to the center and fringes of the galaxy, which are quite far away. It’s too bad the rules of the universe probably prevent cyrosleep.
  • Or in a similar way, you can’t be sure that there are aliens which are more driven than you are. It’s reminiscent of trying to do acausal negotiation, or aliens growing up in a bad neighborhood (Watts short story on belligerence (pdf)Watts on organic Disneylands with no children[8]). However, there is no reason not at least send out astrochickens to make sure.
  • If you’re really out of things to do, run timing attacks on the universe (like at the end of Accelerando) just in case we’re in a simulation.

Why doesn’t the author think there will be things to do? Reading the author’s earlier story, The Tim Tebow CFL Chronicles, makes it abundantly clear that the author has confused The Great Stagnation‘s argument of “we’ve picked a bunch of low hanging fruit, so innovation will slow down” with “there will be no further innovation beyond this point”. (If that isn’t what the author was trying to say, sorry, but making two stories in a row about the same thing is how you get labeled “the guy that writes stories with talking cats”). Yes, slow down and smell the roses instead of checking twitter again, but saying “it’s 17776, and we’re bored out of our minds” just ignores so much of what science fiction talks about[9]. Even a series focused solely on pure known physics science fiction, the Borden series of short stories, still comes up with stories worth telling and, eventually, lives worth living.

Instead of doing things, another acceptable answer is attempt to become a bodhisattva, and spend all your time blissing out. Thinking about it, this might be how you could build the same piece of furniture 1000 times in a row, as a meditative exercise. However, the people in this story are not meditation masters: they’re just people desperately ignoring the enormity of the world around them and carrying on with a specific lifestyle brought to them by historical accident[10].

Which leads to another crazy-mirror concept of the story. “We just hang out” is “we just hang out”, and applies just as cleanly to the immortals and us. We killed god in the 1800s, and plagued ourselves with existential ennui and a fear that we’re just wasting time. The only difference is that in the story the god of death has been removed, so actions have even less direction imposed on them. The author answers obliquely by putting in multiple characters coping with living forever by choosing some objective, and then striving for it. According to my understanding, this is also how most people that grapple with “what is my purpose in life?” eventually deal with it. It doesn’t seem like the author likes that answer, but neither does he propose anything else.

On Children

A related thread hinted at in the story is the complete absence of children paired with effortless immortality. “Man, aren’t children great?” the story sighs. “They would have examined this lawn no one else has examined yet. I really wish we had children, so they could keep our world dynamic and interesting, instead of leaving it staid and boring.”

Which is fair (see Children of Men), but the author is already ignoring the children in front of him.

Admittedly, the children we know about are outside of the solar system, but they’re sentient! And furthermore, they don’t want to kill humans, or kill humans in the process of tiling the universe with atomic smiley faces! They care about football, which is a pretty human thing to do[11]!

So you can make sentient beings by feeding computers enough human culture, and seed their interests with whatever (the probes care about football due to football existing in their payload), and their seed system requirements are 1960s computers. It just takes thousands of years to grow one, which might scale with clock speed. At any rate, it beats being pregnant for 9 months, and having 3 probes become sentient with none of them turning out to be psychotic is a pretty good sign. And since they’re in silicon, they don’t have to only come in probe form, although they can if they want. Having only a few people wanting to take care of new robots should still result in a population explosion (see Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom), especially if even a small fraction of the robots want to hang out in the real world. And with each computational upgrade, the robots would become more like the overminds in The Culture, and the shaping of the world would become their story, not ours. Or, we might end up like Solarians in Asimov’s The Naked Sun, where each person has a cadre of robots and eschews human contact.

Do emulations count as humans? If you record all the electrical activity in the brain at the same time (which should be trivial in a world that already has nanotech), and have good enough physics models on fast enough computers, you can run existing humans in silicon also. Sure, they aren’t children per se, but after spending time copying themselves into clans, their societies will probably seem weird enough that they basically are. (See: Age of EmRevelation Space’s discussion of alpha simulations, The Quantum Thief series)

Can humans simply be printed? Similar to these other suggestions, we know what a human is, and have precision nanotech, so the most brute force thing to do is just take some simulated DNA, stick it in simulated sex cells, and then run the physics models forward until the baby would be born, and then build the baby on a molecular level. Of course there are problems with this: Smalley convinced me years ago that nanotech is fabulously more difficult than nanotech pioneers like Drexler sell it as. However, we’re in 17776, and we’ve already hand waved these problems away with the fiat introduction of nanos.

Both the human-related creation methods, though, probably fall under the purview of “no more human children”, which neatly explains why no one is doing it.

But we’ve already seen that creating more electronic minds is possible: hell, that’s the whole opening conceit. Then, why aren’t there more of them? The unlikely answer is that no one wanted to make them: if nothing else, some enterprising human would figure out how to deliver new electronic minds closely matching human children in android form. The sinister answer is that the same mechanism that prevents conceiving babies prevents the deliberate creation of new minds in general (see the Greg Egan story Crystal Nights).

If that is true, how do you get children again? The answer is simple: kill god (for real this time).

You would solve two goals with one stone: fighting against a fantastically powerful entity means there is no reason to mope around in a facsimile of the 1990s, and if you win you would remove the restrictions placed on humanity. Pining after “true, unfabricated struggle”? You got it.

You can’t kill god, you say? I’ve never liked that people said that god is outside the magisterium of physics, when any link to the theological could be exploited to bring it into physics. Some elaboration: one model of the way we found atomic nuclei is by shooting particles at a thin piece of metal 1 atom wide, and seeing what happened. It’s a lot like throwing billiard balls into a box to figure out what’s in the box by how they bounce back and deflect. So, throw billiard balls at god, and see how they bounce back: the theological consumed by physics (or the other way around). Yes, god is traditionally much more complicated than the atomic structure, but then you could roughly model psychology as throwing (metaphorical) billiard balls at humans. The bottom line? GIT GUD at throwing billiard balls, or GTFO.

And to those that think it’s easy to get to know god, but impossible to move it? It would be giving up too soon to not even try; it’s not clear if they’re in an AI box, and you don’t know you can talk your way out of the box until you try. Better GIT GUD at talking to alien minds.

And if god is watching your thoughts, and changing them as you speak? All I can say is GIT GUD[12], and good luck.

On Power

I do appreciate that the frame of the story stays the same as our current time, because trying to write post-singularity fiction is a shitshow.

However, it’s not just the fact that life is basically the same that is unbelievable, I also feel like the power structures as is are implausible.

Consider money. The cashier saying “want any money?” is super cute, a great overturning of our expectations about the economy. However, why would society still agree to have money? “Money was a horrifying abstraction that I had to scrape together in the past to make rent, but instead of saying FUCK YOU to money when we could, we decided to keep it around.” What?

Consider religion. “The Wages of Sin are Death”? Not anymore, sucker! Religions are memetic, and the old salvation and morality memes based on an afterlife won’t cut it anymore. What about a religion that preaches “if only the entire world believes, then the curse of eternal life will be lifted, and then we may enter Valhalla”? Or, “the Wages of Sin must be Death: if God has forsaken the world and will not accept us, then we will have to do it ourselves”. And no matter which religions develop, there would be no bumbling missionaries that can barely preach to a crowd of one, because every missionary would have had 10,000 hours of preaching practice many times over.

Consider nationality. In a new world, what Kurd would agree to the Turkey/Iraq borders as they are drawn? What Israeli or Palestinian would agree to the current borders? I’m skeptical about much of Africa keeping its internal shape, with colonial borders drawn willy nilly according to European dictates. Or for an example close to my heart, there were rumblings of splitting Washington state into Washington and Cascadia, to match the cultural divide of the state. In the limit, how can the current nation-states be stable, in the face of a vastly different world? Now, if everyone today had open borders, I would find this description of the future more compelling.

Well, maybe the states no longer actually carry weight: what is there to administer in a post-scarcity society? Well, there is conflict mediation, and there must be conflicts once you can print nuclear bombs. “Your stupid octogonal building is stupid, and you’re stupid!” they say right before nuking said building. Well, you would hope that once you got that old, you would be more gentle and understanding, more wise. We all know that older people are simply not petty, right? Adults could not have been involved in MsScribe. Old people don’t hold on to grudges, or get into inane fights with their neighborhood Home Owner’s Association (or see the spats in Disneyland in Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom). Or someone decides to be artistic and turn all of the Americas into a blank clean white canvas (also see XKCD #861), and hacks the nanos to do the deed. Again, goodbye old building, just this time it’s every old building in North America.

Or to put it in a less violent way: who decides what happens to the original Monets? Sure, scan it and re-constitute it atom for atom: we know elementary particles are interchangeable, so the copies would be effectively the original according to any conceivable test. And when people insist on a particular set of atoms that happen to maximally match our sense of continuity? Post-scarcity removes scarcity from an increasing set of things, but humans insist on keeping some scarce things. Spouse? Accept no substitutes, not conjured companions nor 30,000 grapefruits! Or intangibly, all needs can be met, except for the need for relationships and status and wanting to be the very best, like no one ever was. And we’re going to mediate these conflicts with 20th century states?

I’d expect something closer to The Archipelago, where folks associate with the people they want to associate with. When you don’t have anything but status games to play, why would you play them with people you don’t like, or refuse to play the same status games? “I can recall a million digits of pi and can dunk on you, but you insist you’re better because you can recite all the lines of Sailor Moon and wrestle sharks.” If you squint, it’s just extrapolating from the existing trends: with the internet, we got a fantastic fragmentation of communities, each focused on their thing. Also see The Diamond Age: when it’s possible to just raise an island in the middle of the ocean and go live there with your friends who are weirdly into Victorian era top hats, instead of living next to the people that loudly insist fedoras are far superior, why wouldn’t you?

Back to the story: let’s grant that there’s still power, possibly in a form of a state, possibly in a way that closely approximates 20th century power structures with a president and all that. Let’s say that some authoritarian state made it to 17776 without overthrowing their dictator, but it finally happens in 17777. There’s a lot of pent up frustration with the dictator, but they can’t simply execute him; besides, execution might be too good for him. What do they do?

On Darkness

So everything’s been fun and games up until now. What would people build with all the free time? Why aren’t there children, even though you can’t have children? (Life, uh, finds a way) Why are the power structures the same?

Well, what could go wrong?

Trigger warnings: torture, mind fuckery, suicide.

Let’s go back to the dictator. What if he was thrown into the sun? He’s obviously going to live, since the rules of the universe enforce that. However, he’s stuck in a 15,000,000C furnace. Depending on exactly how the rules of immortality work, he might be crushed. He would definitely be burning, or if everything except his brain is burned away, then living in enforced solitary confinement with no sensory input. If no one wants to dig him out of the sun, then he could stay there for a very, very long time. (Also see the Priest’s story in Hyperion).

Maybe simple burning for eons on end is too good your enemies. Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect directly tackles this, where the application of endless torture permanently damages at least one person. Of course, the nanos are there to keep humans safe from each other, but all systems can be defeated, and as the tag line of Alien goes, no one can hear you scream in space.

If you stick a pole through someone’s brain, does it give them seizures, or does it maintain their previous mental state, or does the pole simply bounce off? If the powers that be just protect the person against physical assault, something more subtle might work; you can use magnets to induce changes in mind state in people. Watts extrapolates this to maintaining religion in his “A Word for Heathens” short story. Hey presto, Stockholm Syndrome in an MRI! It’s known that brainwashing doesn’t work[13], but things might change when you can actually alter thoughts in flight, or have enough time to experiment with changing the brain chemistry of a person.

Speaking of mind alterations, why are the streets of 17776 so full? They should be emptied by the final drug, wireheading. Just stimulate your reward centers in your brain, and do it endlessly. There would be problems with adapting to the constant stimulation, but I’m sure it could be worked out by 17776. Imagine: you can’t die, but you’re bored. You’ve played football for ten thousand years in a row, and five thousand years ago you were ready to die, having lived a full life. But the kids a street over are talking about a way out. You’ll live forever, and you won’t care, because you’ll be maximally blissed out. Once you wirehead, you won’t decide “man, my life kind of sucks, I should do something else” because nothing would suck, forever. And if even a tiny proportion of people each year decide to wirehead, over time the wireheading population subsumes the human population (see this fictional supporting report for Echopraxia). Eventually, everyone will be smiling, and they won’t be creatures of play, they’ll be creatures of happiness[14], forever.

Or maybe the powers that be decide that these outcomes are too horrifying to allow, so “artificial” modification by electrical or chemical or crowbar means is disallowed. Well, we have depressed people that we help with drugs: are they denied their mind altering chemicals? Did this god doom schizophrenics to an eternity of delusions? Is there some population off-screen that can only lay in bed, hopeless for either positive help or the sweet release of death?

Perhaps you understand now what I mean when I say that The Future of Football is the singularity for noobs. Compared to existing sci-fi options the story is kind of bland, where nothing exciting nor nothing too terrible has happened. It’s great for beginners, though, who haven’t really grappled with living forever or being in a high tech post-scarity society, and need that “see, the future isn’t too wild, but why not think about these ideas?” headfake to get them to consider it[15].

Again, it’s a fine story; it doesn’t deserve a moniker like “a story about for those that haven’t thought about the far future before, and won’t think about the far future again”. However, I think it does function best as a gateway drug into a whole universe of science fiction all excitedly dialoging about the products of our accumulated imaginations.

[1]  Of course it’s American football.

[2]  Pun alert: in the author’s earlier Tim Tebow CFL Chronicles, he refers to the images as paintings, when they’re just images processed with Photoshop filters.

However, this is similar to the econo-art idea I had. It’s derived from eco-rounds in CounterStrike, where players leverage lower-cost equipment to save up for a buy round. Econo-art is just low-cost art, which is just good enough to get the point across. You could spend lots of time making a single beautiful pre-photography realism style painting, or you could apply some Photoshop filters and finish the story in a reasonable time. Maybe more on this in the future.

[3]  “Didn’t you enjoy Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality?” Well, I also enjoyed this story, so…

[4]  Possible counter: there used to be a lot more variation, but we’ve killed most of it as collateral damage in making the world legible. Thank the gods for global street-by-street GPS navigation, but we’ve lost our cheeses, and I don’t think they’re coming back in 3 days (but see these comments for discussion).

[5]  Some people just really love taking care of animals.

[6]  Fast forward evolution? For example, Seveneves muses on using epigenetic flexibility in order to adapt organisms more quickly to changing environments. This specific example probably can’t be made to work, even for 17776 societies, but there’s probably a lot of study to be brought to bear on genetics.

[7]  There’s an open question about whether running evolution is ethical, since most evolution involves actual death, and probably lots of suffering. I’ll let the 17776 ethics board weigh in on that.

[8]  I broke my back lifting Moloch to heaven, and all I got was a Disneyland with no children. If consciousness turns out to be extraneous, then it might get weeded out in intense competition, which is bad news for us people that value being conscious.

[9]  It doesn’t help that the author sketches a game labeled “capitalism run amok” with a critical tone (which looks an awful lot more like 4chan run amok). Sure, reject creative destruction (which, to be fair, becomes a lot less horrifying when you can no longer freeze to death on the streets), but then complaining that no one is making things to do is somewhat incongruous.

[10]  I also think the argument that “people rejected things that caused them to lose their connection to humanity” implies a different end state than the author paints. Why stop at the 1990s? Why not dribble it all the way back to the savanna, a sort of uber-Amish lifestyle that puts us back into the long childhood of humanity?

Then there’s the argument that people want things to stay the same, citing people that get older and keep everything the same. It’s certainly poetic, “Plates and portraits… would leave unbleached shadows of themselves in the paint”. However, I think the author is ignoring that as people get older, they break down: everything starts to hurt, mental agility declines. Why would they move the couch when they would throw out their back? Let’s reverse aging, and then see what the old folks do.

[11]  Future AI researchers that might be reading this, please do not use “love of football” as an AI friendliness metric. It will go poorly.

[12]  First, a horror story about ideas that cannot be thought, and ideas that can eat you alive. Sound similar?

As far as we know, there’s no telekill material in the universe. What could we plausibly do? One way to try and combat mind reading is to first scan your mind into a computer, and then homomorphically encrypt the scan, and then run it forwards with homomorphic encryption operations to simulate physics while feeding in things about the world. That way you can “think” about the problem without making it easy for god. Sure, once god notices, it would look for the encryption keys, or would keep watch for malicious thoughts joined with thoughts about homomorphic encryption, but these are both a bit harder than just looking for a mind thinking about overthrowing god. If you cannot win, and refuse to lose, impose costs.

[13]  I remember reading this from a semi-trusted source, but now I can’t find it, and can only find articles conveying “lol are your children being BRAINWASHED into a CULT?”.

[14]  My impression is that you will find wireheading abhorrent. “I almost felt transcendent joy. It was awful.” What matters is not that you find it abhorrent now, but whether you will always consider it abhorrent over the next 15,759 years. Without ironclad norms against wireheading, people will eventually try it.

[15]  Associated idea: future shock levels. It’s from 1999, which means that it’s woefully out of date, but the general idea still holds.

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Thoughts on My Tribe

Epistemic status: feelings and intuitions.

I’m an aspiring rationalist[1], and I count myself as a part of my local rationality interested community.

And it’s wonderful that the community is here! I can confidently say that if it weren’t, I would be less the sort of person I want to be[2]. It introduced me in quick succession to lots of intelligent people, a series of thoughtful ideas, and immersed me in an infectious self-improvement environment. In a more hands on way, it gave me valuable first lessons in people management when I found myself growing into the defacto leader of a rationalist group house. And, it gave me a people I could call my people[3].

But lately, the community has been dragging on my soul.

The drag is low-grade apprehension, because our defacto leader is leaving for that galactic attractor, The Great Bay Hole[4]. We’ve seen this story before[5]; one person steps up to run things, making sure that meetups happen and generally keeping up the community. Unfortunately, there are two ways this falls apart: first, the sort of person that becomes an energetic charismatic leader tends to reason themselves into a corner that requires them to move to The Bay so they can Save The World[6]. Or, if there’s something keeping them from moving to The Bay, then whatever that is can suddenly require more from them, so the person has to load shed, and leading the community will go out the window before whatever the Bay-Blocking Important Thing is. Either way, they end up leaving after a stint as the local community leader, leaving a vacuum of responsibility, which usually one person to steps up to fill…

This sort of arrangement can be sustainably unsustainable, if there’s enough new energetic people that stick around for a few years before abdicating their position. However, there isn’t currently a clear energetic charismatic leader candidate. The people with babies? The people that will have babies soon? The people busy with school? The people busy with work? The people with unfortunate amounts of anxiety? Me?

could talk at length about the different ways gardening[7] the community is a thorny proposition: I agonized over a few drafts of this post that were all about those difficulties[8]. However, most of the musing was quite abstract, and after thinking about it I realized that while most of my concerns were relevant, they weren’t ultimately important: they didn’t get at the heart of why I felt apprehensive.

The heart of my apprehension is a fear of ending up alone, becoming the sole person putting in non-trivial effort to keep the dream alive. If I pick up the mantle, then it becomes difficult to put back down; don’t I have a responsibility to the community that helped me so much? I should just suck it up and focus more and more energy on the management of the community. And then one day I’ll find myself muttering “somebody has to, and no one else will”, the same thing I internal monologued while burning myself out running the group house, and a phrase I firmly believe should be reserved for profoundly tragic figures, not your everyday run of the mill humans[9].

Yes, dropping responsibilities on the floor was/is/will always be an option: the global BATNA[10] has never been more amenable. But being the last one turning out the lights is sad, like I personally doomed my people to astronomical rents[11], horrific public transportation[12], a boring culture, and pleasant year-round weather. And when I consider the possible outcomes, it’s failure that weighs on my mind. Better to never try, instead of putting in a heroic effort and then seeing it all fall apart in the end anyways.

Well, when you put it that way the counter is obvious: don’t focus solely on the negative outcomes, duh. My counter-counter is wrapped up in the sprawling unpublished essay[13] on my expected cost/benefit for community gardening: high cost, potentially high reward with high variability. Against this uncertainty, I have a menagerie of personal hopes and dreams, a todo list the length of my arm with little of it directly tied to running a community. Is it worth it for me to step up into the energetic charismatic leader[14] role? To put it mildly, I’m uncertain, and it doesn’t help that even when I try to plug my ears, I still hear the doom and gloom rolling in over the community.

This story has a tentatively happy ending.

A recent[15] meetup tried to figure out what the group would be doing, and several people stepped up to take on temporary shared responsibility, with more people tentatively waiting in the wings if things fell through. We’ve tried a similar leadership sharing scheme before, which failed after a brief stint, but we haven’t tried it more than once and in this particular configuration, which makes this “an interesting experiment” and not “the definition of insanity”.

Yes, really, the fact that I physically saw a handful of people willing and able to help, not including myself, really upped my probability[16] that things could keep functioning, and not on Ye Olde Single Energetic Leader model we’ve been chugging forward with. I know from my experiences with the group house that foisting everything on one person produces less work overall, since there are no communication costs. However, not paying the initial costs to make sure people can provide extra capacity means any bump in workload is really a bump in workload for one person, who can’t delegate because the scaffolding isn’t in place. Plus, there’s no redundancy. Therefore, it’s worth the upfront costs to spread the work around, which makes this shared responsibility scheme exciting[17].

It’s not “everything is easy now, and nothing could possibly go wrong”; there are still real costs, and the problems to overcome are still difficult[18]. It’s more about putting to rest the feeling that “I’m the last line, and here I will make my stand alone” and transmuting it into “if I’m part of a last line, then at least I won’t be alone”. Which isn’t the sort of thing you don’t alieve[19] until you see it moving into action, with the ideas and commitment rolling in.

Maybe everything isn’t hopeless bullshit. We’ll keep flying this plane, and with a little elbow grease, maybe we’ll fly it into the last sunset.

[1]  If you’re not familiar, it’s the sort of new wave rationalism original based out of LessWrong (notably a shadow of its former self now), not the sort of enlightenment rationalism that insisted the world had to make sense, and damn it humanity had a duty to change the world if it didn’t conform. As it turns out, this old-school worldview runs into problems, which we hope to avoid.

[2]  Keeping in mind that being part of the community has most certainly altered my idea of what an ideal version of myself looks like.

[3]  Scott Alexander just recently talked about this, explaining it’s his karass, and I’m sure it’s my karass as well well.

[4]  The global community started with an unusual number of people in The Bay, and because we’re not really on board with inefficiencies, obviously moving to the place with all your online friends makes sense. Once you’ve moved, it makes even more sense for your friends to move to The Bay…

[5]  Simplified account is simplified.

[6]  If it’s not Save The World, it might even be as simple as “it’s easier to run my startup there” or “all the people I want to collaborate with are there”.

[7]  “Gardening a community” is a nice way to formulate community growth, which I’ve stolen from Scott’s “In Favor of Niceness, Community, and Civilization”.

[8]  In abbreviated form, what I think makes gardening the community hard: our standards are high, so putting together content is daunting. We’re concerned about using rationality instrumentally, but our interests are varied, so it’s hard to get enough people together to put things to practice on the same target. Doing original work is difficult, since a lot of the low hanging fruits have been picked. We’re drawn from contrarian-heavy populations. Relatedly, we value truth over conformity, even if it makes things more inefficient. Generally, the modern community BATNA means it’s easier to leave groups with difficult problems, even if they are also important problems. Management of a community is not the same thing at all as dealing with whatever the community is focused on, so management is a chore instead of something that comes naturally. Personally, I have truncated social needs, so I would be okay as a Seder/Solstice rationalist (analog with Christmas/Easter Christian). I also think I’m missing a formative experience of exploratory collaboration that the community facilitated, which would help me feel that the community is important.

[9]  There are things worth doing this for, like challenging hell, but no matter how you cut it “running a meetup” is not in the same reference class.

[10]  Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement (BATNA). It’s never been easier to simply leave; there’s are groups looking for members everywhere, and you’re not stuck in one village your entire life.

[11]  I recognize that saying this from the NYC metropolitan area is lol worthy, but at least we have a proper city.


[13]  The aforementioned first drafts of this post are basically that essay.

[14]  I’d have to work on the charisma. And the energetic also, probably. And, well, if we’re being honest, the leader part too…

[15]  It’s not-so-recent by this point; this post is like 2-3 months on a timely issue, which doesn’t really work. Well, something for me to works towards.

[16]  I was also surprised by the extent to which I was moved by the social proof of people earnestly discussing things in a room.

[17]  I also recognize that if I have too much of a hand in designing this sort of organizational scaffolding, I’d probably be prone to second system effects. Something to watch out for.

[18]  We’re not even talking about the really hard sorts of problems, like solving climate engineering, nuclear proliferation, or intelligence foom scenarios. They’re much more mundane, like “what should we talk about next week?” or “how many game nights per month is too much?”. Solving the mundane problems will hopefully help progress on the harder problems, but we’ll have to see how that pans out.

[19]  Useful concept alert: you know something, you believe it. But do you feel it in your gut, do you alieve it?

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